Notes from the meeting with Jaroslaw

On July 2025, Chalo (Haim) and Itay met with the researcher Jarosław Dulewicz (Jarek), a researcher who gave us tremendous help in building the tree and collecting documents.

Below are notes from the meeting.

• Vital record (meaning: birth, marriage, death) privacy law in Poland:
  • Birth certificate that are not 100 years old (after 1925) are under the privacy law, so they are not scanned nor available in the archive.
    • The date is sometimes of the whole book, so even if the certificate is from 1920, but the book it's written in is for the years 1920-1940, it will be under the privacy law until 2040.
    • The date of the birth certificate is not necessarily the date of birth, they sometimes register the birth certificate a few years after the actual birth.
      • Example in our case:
  • For death certificates and marriage certificates - they are moved to the archives after 80 years.
• There are 2 official books for death certificates (That's why there are 2 death certificates of Lejzor Flikier):
  • The first one is the one with descriptions.
  • The second one is in a form of a table. It contains information about the death reason.
  • The work in the same way in regards to year and AKT number.
• The website metryki.genbaza.pl is run by the genealogy society of Poland, and its scans are available also in the official state archive.
  • There are many websites that show the same scans.
  • Jarek uses it because it's easier to use.
• Why do we have only the death certificate of Zelman-Icek Flikier (the brother of Lejzor Flikier) and not the birth certificate?
  • There are a lot of gaps in the Ostrowiec records, not all books survived.
  • Jarek said that this is probably the reason why he couldn't find the death certificate of Zelman Flikier (the father of Berek Flikier, the grandfather of Lejzor Flikier).
  • The seperate books for Jews started to be kept from 1826 (before that - Jews were registered together with other religions - there was just one civil registry). They did that only for Jews. Jarek doesn't know why, he said it was the decision of the Russian authorities. The civil books were organized based on the Napoleonic code, when Warsaw Duchy was established during the Napoleonic wars (beginning of the 19th century). Then, when the Russians took control of the area, they decided to create separate registry offices for Jews. For the gaps - we don't have birth certificates at the beginning for the period. First birth certificates started in 1850, so we have 25 years of missing birth certificates. Then, we have another huge gap in the death certificates: The last book is for 1850, and the next one is 1886 (36 years of missing death certificates).
• When seaching the JRI, we should choose Radom, because Ostrowiec was part of the Radom district, and not Kielce.
  • In the first half of the 19th century, there was one big Radom district.
  • Then they split it into 2 districts: Radom and Kielce (Kielce was a new one what was established).
    • JRI uses the old division of Governorates (districts).
  • During the inter-wars period, Ostrowiec was part of the Kielce district.
  • Now it's part of the Swietokrzyskie district (literally "Holy Cross" district, because of the "Holy Cross mountain range" that is in the district).
• Conjucture of Jarek about the relationship of other Flikier to our family:
  • Jarek thinks that David was probalbly a brother of Zelman Flikier (the father of Berek Flikier, the grandfather of Lejzor Flikier).
    • His wife is Dobra Basha.
      • There is a mistake in JRI records: they wrote "Davidowa" which means she was a wife of David, but this "Davidowa" is written under father's name.
        • "icz" like "Davidowicz" means "son of David",
        • "owa" like "Davidowa" means "wife of David"
      • She died in 1844, at the age of 63.
    • Dydia was son of David.
    • Why Jarek thinks he was his brother?
      • Becuase the name Davia appeared quite often in our tree
        • David son of Lejzor,
        • Berek also had a son David in Ozarow with his second wife - Lywca Hochman
        • Josek-Haim had a son Dydia
      • Ashkenazi Jews quite often used the same name.
        • For example, Dydia had a son called Josek-Chaim, which had a son called Dydia.
      • So Jarek says it can't be a coincidence. It suggests that the families were related to each other.
• Sometimes people have 2 names, and one is used in one AKT and the other in another AKT.
  • So it can be confusing.
• Jarek thinks the family is originally from Ostrowiec (all points below are a conjucture of Jarek):
  • Berek was in Ostrowiec and had at least 2 kids (Zelman-Icek and Lejzor) and lived there with his first wife Rajzla.
  • Then, after Rajzla died (we don't have her death certificate because of the gaps in the records), he married Lywca Hochman and moved to Ozarow.
  • After he lived there for a while, he changed his permanent residence to Ozarow.
    • You can always change your permanent residence, but you need to go to the town hall and do it officially.
  • Lejzor have moved with his father to Ozarow, as he was only 7 years old, when Frymet (the first child of Berek and Lywca) was born in 1868.
  • Lejzor came back some day to Ostrowiec.
• Berek Flikier and Lywca Hochman had 5 children, but we had a death certificate only of 2 of them (Dawid and Szlama Hersz). why?
  • Probably because Albert asked JRI for records with the name "Flikier", and maybe in the death certificate of the other children, they were registered the parents' surname (Could be written also "daughter of Berek and Lywca", without the surname "Flikier"). So it's not found in the search.
  • We should dig deeper, for example ask for the Book of Residence in Ozarow, where there might be an entire page for each family (like a page for Icek and Tauba Raca).
  • Also, quite often the Jews didn't register the death / birth / marrige with the Polish authorities. They had their own book in the synagogue, but all was burned.
    • They can come years later to the Polish authorities and register in one day all of their children together.
      • This is the case of Icek Flikier (the son of Lejzor, and father of Chalo (Haim)) - he was registered on 1933, when he 20 years old (born in 1913)
      • Also the case of David Flikier (the son of Lejzor, uncle of Chalo (Haim)) - he was registered on 1936, when he was 35 years old (born in 1901)
      • This is why it's still kept in the registry, and not moved to the archive. The 100 years start from the date of last registration in the book, and not from the actual date of birth.
• In JRI records, we can see that regarding Lejzor's children, we have birth certificates of David, Icek, Esther, Ruchla, Szprynca. Missing 4 other children: Berek, Chudesa, Josek, Fajga Raizel. Where are there birth certificates?
  • We see that the registred children are ones of Chuma.
  • So that's the reason they were registered in Ozarow.
  • Jarek thinks that it's possible the Chuma lived in Ozarow.
  • He is sure that she was still alive in 1933, because in the birth certificate of Icek, it's written that the one who registered the birth was Gitla Kirshten-something probably-Flikier, and she testified that Icek was born in Ozarow (and not Ostrowiec like it's written in Book of Permanent Residence of Ostrowiec), for deceased father Lejzor and still alive mother Chuma Wartman, age 60 (in 1933). So she was born probably in 1873 (1933 - 60 = 1873).
  • This suggests the Chuma lived in Ozarow in the 1930s, and that's why someone registered all the birth certificates in Ozarow.
  • But we told Jarek that in the Book of Ozarow, it's says that only the family of David and Gitla, and another Flikier family we are not sure about, lived in Ozarow. No more Flikier in Ozarow.
• What happened for example to all children of Dawid Flikier and Gitla Rochwerg? Did they die in the Holocaust?
  • It's also possible that they moved from Ozarow to another town, and it should be searched in different towns.
    • Because many Jews moved to bigger towns, like Kielce or Lodz.
• How come JRI has information about certificates that are not yet in the archive? (They are not scanned in the archive website)
  • There are reseachers that work for JRI that go in person to the municipalities / registry offices, and extract information without scanning it.
• We said that sometimes it's hard to understand which person is it only by first name, because it can appear a lot in the same tree.
  • Jarek said that at least with Jewish people a child won't have the same name as the father, and in Poland they used to it in the past (until several decades ago).
  • Jews called sometimes the child after the name of the grandparent, but only after the grandparent died.
• Maybe Lejzor had even more brothers, and not just Zelman-Icek Flikier who died at the age of 1, that were never registered.
  • But, it's also possible that Berek's first wife (Rajzla Berkowicz) died just after Lejzor was born, and then he married Lywca Hochman.
  • We weren't able to find Rajzla's death certificate because of the gaps in the records of death certificates in Ostrowiec between 1850 till 1886 (36 years of missing death certificates).
    • Those books for those years were destroyed in a war (first or second world war).
    • There are other places were it happened that not a single book survived: Łagów and Raków.
    • Also, Iwaniska is a small town close to Sandomierz and Opatow, and was one of the oldest shtetels in the area, and definitely got books from the beginning of the 19th century till the war, and even not one book was survived. People with ancestry from Iwaniska can't find practically anything. Not only the vital records (birth, marriage, death) but also the town records (like book of residence, and other types of records - like list of voters, etc.)
      • It's because the entire (90%) town was burned
• Can we find information about Lejzor's wife Chuma? If we had her birth certificate, we could understand wheter she's Mirels or Wartman.
  • Chuma birth certificate is a problem, because we don't know her parents' names.
  • Jarek did find Ita Brafman's death certificate, she died in 1897, in Ostrowiec.
    • But there is no note that she was the wife of Lejzor, but the age fits that she could be the wife of Lejzor.
    • He found it in Ostrowiec records.
• About the Book of Ozarow:
  • Jarek said they didn't extracted and prepared index from the book of residence of Ozarow, like the one we have for Lejzor (He thought that at the first)
    • But - It's an index to the register of residents. The book runs from 1932 till the war. So this is the book of people that actually lived in Ozarow (unlike the book of residence).
      • Why his think it the actual peple that lived in Ozarow? Because there were 2 books:
        • The book of permanent residence - those with status of "permanent residence" in Ozarow.
        • The register of residents - those that actually lived in Ozarow.
          • This "Book of Ozarow" is definitely from this "register of residents" book, because the "Book of Ozarow" contains names of streets, and in the "permanent residence" book there are no streets names, only numbers that indicate the "street" (Like "99" in Lejzor's page).
  • Where are all the Flikier-s that were supposed to live in Ozarow? Is it a mistake that the last kids of Lejzor and Chuma are registed in the book of residence of Ozarow as being born in Ozarow, unlike the first kids that are registered as being born in Ostrowiec, and all Lejzor's family actually lived just in Ostrowiec? And what about all the brothers of Dawid Flikier? (Why aren't they, the other chlidren of Lywca Hochman, in the Book of Ozarow?)
    • Maybe they didn't live there at all, or maybe not anymore in 1932.
    • Jarek search for husbands of children of Dawid and Gitla, like Icek Brajer and Lejzor Tyszler, and they are not found in Ozarow.
      • It suggests that they moved to another town.
    • Jarek found a document about Lywca Hochmana, where it's written that she came from Ozarow, was a daughter of Josek, was a widow, was a permanent resident of Ozarow, and moved to Lodz. The document includes address in Lodz where she lived.
    • Jarek found similar document, about Roiza, daughter Berek and Lywca, also moving to Lodz. And she married Abraham and had 3 children.
      • And this is how we found another daughter of Berek and Lywca - Roiza. It means that her birth certificate was not registered.
  • We said the name "Flikier" appears in the book 10 times. Trying with him to understand who are those 10 people:
    • 5 appearances: There is 1 place of Dawid Flikier with his wife Gitla Rochwerg with their 3 (out of 5) youngest children: Berek, Marma (Marima), Michel.
    • 3 appearances: Jarek says it's another daughter of Dawid and Gitla - Zysla Chana Flikier - with her 2 children: Zelik Lejb, Estera Małka.
    • 1 appearance: Urbach Marjem Rywka, who was the wife of Berek (written "(5) przy Flikierze Berku")
      • She is here under her maiden name, because they registered the marriage only in 1939.
      • The book has a note that she lives with Berek.
  • We can learn from the book the Dawid and Gitla were living in Lubelska street Number 2.
    • The street doesn't exist anymore, but Jarek said that it was probably a main street because in Poland, a road to another town is called using the name of the other town (The road to Krakow is called Krakowska street, the road to Lublin is called Lubelska street, etc.)
    • We found in the "Partial List of Ozarow Deportees" document of Izkor book.
      • It's written in the page 2 Flikier-s from the area 5 of the map (which is on Lubelska street): Bairish Flikier and Cudyk Flikier.
      • Jarek said that Bairish is a variant of the name Berek. So it's the son of Dawid and Gitla (Who married in 1939).
      • Cudyk is probably his son.
• What about the birth or death certificates of the wives of Lejzor?
  • Jarek found Ita's death certificate, not under the name Flikier but Brafman.
    • She died with her maiden name, because the only legal wife of Lejzor was Chinda.
  • Regarding Riwka Dvora Fraiberg, he also found her death certificate.
  • So theoritically, we can find the death certificate of Chuma too.
    • In Icek's birth certificate (Jarek called Ozarow municipality and she read it to him), and it says she was 60 years old in the time of registering him on 1933, so she was probably born in 1873.
    • We could search the indexes the in vital books (the table in the end of each year).
      • It's better to take the death book and start looking from 1942 backwards.
      • Because the problem with the birth certificate, it that sometimes children were not registered, so maybe there is no birth certificate of Chuma.
      • In the Ozarow book of residence (Lejzor's page), Chuma is not registered. She just appear as the mother of some of Lejzor's children.
        • So we do not know the name of her parents, her date of birth and place of birth.
        • Jarek says that it suggests that she didn't have birth certificate (The authorities didn't have information about her to add to the book).
    • Jarek said that both her names, Mirels and Wartman appear when he searches for records.
      • There is a Mirels family in Chelnow.
      • There are quite many Mirels also in Zawichost, a small town close to Ozarow and Ostrowiec.
      • He found some "Chudesa Mirels" who died in 1898, and Chuma had a daughter (with Lejzor) called Chudesa.
        • It could suggest that she might be the mother of Chuma, and daughter was called after her grandmother.
      • There are some Wartman-s from Opatow, Ostrowiec, Chelnow, Sandomierz, Zawichost, Tarłów
      • So both last names (Mirels and Wartman) appear in the area.
• In the document contributon to synagogue / Jewish community in Ozarow and Ostrowiec, we see very few Flikier-s (like Dydia)
  • Jarek said that maybe they were poor, and didn't pay the contribution.
  • Jarek said that in the case of Lejzor, who died in 1930, and the list of contribution is from 1930 and something, so maybe that's why it doesn't include him.
• Can we know whether the other sons of Leizor - Fajga Raizel Flikier (daughter of Lejzor with Riwka Dvora Fraiberg) and Josek Flikier (son of Lejzor with Ita Brafman) - had kids? (Because we know the kids of the other wives of Lejzor)
  • There are no records in the JRI, so it probably means they didn't live in Ostrowiec or Ozarow.
  • We will have to search in other towns. Like the case of Lywca Hochman that moved to Lodz.
• In the book of residence, Chuma is written to be unmarried (illegal wife) in the Polish records, but not in the Russian records. Does it mean anything?
  • Jarek said it could be because someone testified differently in the first children (Someone said she was his legal wife, and no one checked it).
  • It happens a lot.
• The the JRI Excel files there are lines with type B=birth, D=death, M=marriage. What is type X?
  • It seems to relate to other records with the same AKT number, but it does not include new information.
  • We can ignore those records.
• Any other records from Ostrowiec we can find information?
  • There are books for some buildings with their residents, but the books for the street Glogowska, Zatilna, Tilna - they didn't survive.
  • There are 500+ book, but definitely before the war there were more buildings in Ostrowiec.
  • Also, huge records of school records.
    • He showed the records us one son of Shprynca and Szmul Waldman - Berek. He attended school number 1 in Ostrowiec. We can see the grades.
    • Did Icek attend school in Ostrowiec?
      • Theoretically, he could, because he was born 1913. Before 1918, there was no law that Jewish kids should attend Polish schools. After 1918, Poland gained independence (partially) again, and the law was established that Jewish kids should also attend Polish schools.
• Is it possible that Lejzor had more children? Because we have a rumor that he had 14 children, but we found only 9.
  • Yes:
    • For example, we need to remember that the Ozarow book was created at the beginning of 20th century, so if the children died before that, they won't appear in the book, cause they didn't register people that already died.
    • For example, he might not register the birth certificate of other children.
    • For example, he might have children in other towns.
• Why do we have only the death certificate of Zelman-Icek Flikier, and not the birth certificate?
  • It might not have survived. Also, people in the 19th century didn't always register the birth certificate (It wasn't important for them).
  • Jarek said that there is a simple explanation here: There are not birth certificates before 1860.
• Should we contant JRI for more new information they have collected in the last 2 years (our JRI Excel files were sent from them 2 years ago)
  • Maybe they have more information now, but Jarek said that probably not.
  • We can also receive the school records, that Jarek prepared for JRI (A work he did for them).
  • Regarding other towns - The records for the Opatow district didn't survive.
• Do you think we can find marriage certificate of Icek and Sarah in Lvov?
  • It's possible that they married in the Soviet Union, because it was under the Soviet control.
  • Anyway in Poland, they have records only for area that are currently in Poland, and Lvov is now in Ukraine.
• Jarek found in Wyszukiwanie osób represjonowanych that Berek, son of Dawid and Gitla, was in a prison in Opatow during the war, for 10 days.
• Do you know the origin of the name Flikier?
  • No. But he could say that there is no Polish name like that.
• Do you know if Bajla Gertner, for the Kielce progrom, has any relation to our family?
  • Yes, her grandmother was Bajla Flikier. She is from the other branch of the family were Dydia Flikier that we found.
    • Riwka Bajla Flikier, maiden, 21 years old, daughter of deceased Josek-Haim
    • Josek-Haim was the son of Dydia.
    • Dydia was the son of David.
    • Jarek says that we think thay David and Zelman were brothers.
      • How did we find about this David?
        • There is a birth certificate of him, that he died in the age of 70-something, and also the death certificate of Dydia Davidowicz.
    • Jarek also found a marriage certificate of Rachmil Mozek Gertner and Riwka Bajla Flikier.
      • They have got a son called Israel David, who married Rikla (Ruchla) Gringlas.
        • They have got 2 children: Aba (Abush) Gertner, who fought in the Ghetto uprising in Warsaw, and Bajla.
        • They lived in in Urzeczka/Użeczka street.
    • All this came from birth certificate from Ostrowiec, that Jarek has on his computer (We can search for it online).
    • When did they leave Ostrowiec?
      • Jarek thinks they lived there until the war.
      • Bajla's parents died during the war.
      • Bajla's brother moved to Warsaw, and fought in the Ghetto uprising, and died there.
      • Bajla was preparing to move to Israel, since she was in the Kibbutz in Kielce.